Monday, March 3, 2008

Oprah's Pluralism

I am amazed that so many actually believe that this woman is a Christian. However, this video should settle the issue of Oprah's religion once and for all.



Oprah is a nice person (as well as an excellent self-promoter), but she is clearly NOT a Christian.

BTW: See Chuck Norris's response to Oprah's latest "New Earth" course.

27 comments:

  1. I actually rather liked Oprah's opinions on the subject - it leaves the discussion wide open about the 'path to God' or 'finding God' in our human realities. I have to admit I found the path to God via the teachings of Christ mind you - but not all will and yet we still see godly aspects to those people (ie: Jewish people for example).

    Now I don't really care if Oprah is a Christian or not per se - but is she a person that cares about humanity and the betterment of us as a whole peoples? I would say 'yes' from a look from the outside and based on the ideas she supports (ie: the whole big gift reality show). I really have a tough time not finding the love of God in that concept.

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  2. societyvs,

    I would implore you to consider the sinfulness of man's nature as well as the holiness of God. It is Christ alone who can, as both God and man, redeem us to the Father. Oprah's pluristic views take neither seriously.

    If, as you suggest, you take seriously the teachings of Christ, then give heed to his own warnings.

    "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

    "...unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

    Which will it be societyvs? Oprah or Jesus?

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  3. I couldn't finish it....it's sad that she is promoting such an unbiblical worldview. It's one thing to struggle with the question of what will happen to those who have never heard the Gospel of Christ, it's quite another to actively promote rejecting HIm, which, ultimately, she is doing when she claims that you can have a restored realtionship with God without Him.

    If she loves Christ and TRULY understands the gospel (and this applies to ANY person) we should be OVERJOYED to spread God's love to people and never be ashamed of it.

    Quite honestly, those who treat Christ's sacrifice and resurrection with such blase nonchalance speak very loudly of their own attitude of HIs gift. If it is such a great gift, why treat it so dismissively? Why equate it with wimpy acts like rituals and rigid deeds?

    And quite honestly, if we can be reconciled to God by simply resorting to rituals and "good thoughts", then why in the world did Christ even have to die!!??!?

    No the Gift from Christ should NEVER be equated with such pathetic attempts of humans. Christ came BECAUSE these pathetic attempts can never reconcile us to HIM!

    Praise God.

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  4. "As for 'the way' there - well that's where we get into the meat of this discussion. I personally think when Jesus makes this statement he is referencing his teachings that 'lead us' to God..."
    (societyvs)

    I think you have missed the point. Jesus could have just as easily said "My teachings" are the way. He did not. He said "I" am the way... in the SAME way he referenced himself in the seven other "I AM" statements found in John.

    Salvation is found ultimately not in a set of teachings, but in a person, Christ Jesus himself. The teaching point us to HIM, for he is the way. The apostle Paul speaks of this in Rom 3 when he writes "But now a righteousness FROM GOD, apart from law, HAS been MADE KNOWN. ... This righteousness from God comes through faith IN JESUS CHRIST to ALL who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION that came by CHRIST JESUS. God presented HIM as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." (Rom 3:21-25a)

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  5. societyvs,
    You said.... I actually rather liked Oprah's opinions on the subject - it leaves the discussion wide open about the 'path to God' or 'finding God' in our human realities.

    If you believe the Bible is true, then the case is not open, but closed. The Bible clearly establishes faith in the atonement of Jesus as the method God has chosen for men to be redeemed to eternal life.

    Do you really find it logical that the creator God of the universe would die on the cross for human salvation and that would be just one of many ways?

    If there were many other ways, I believe he would have passed on the cross and pointed men toward those other ways. The Bible not only gives no other ways, it denies salvation through false gods of mens' imagination.

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  6. "societyvs, I meant to also ask. Are you involved in the emergent church movement?" (Jazzycat)

    Actually, I admire some of their ideas but I am not one of them - no.

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  7. If societyvs denies Christ's ability to atone and holds to Rabbi Singer's statement "Jesus could not die for anyone's sins...", then he is NOT a Christian and should be noted accordingly.

    1 Jn 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, ..."

    1 John 4:10 "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."

    Rom 3:22ff "...This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood..."

    Seems societyvs not only denies the true gospel but seeks to come up with his own, one which looks to works righteousness rather than the gift and righteousness of God.

    I recommend societyvs study the difference between salvation by grace vs. salvation by works, and establish a relationship with a local Christian pastor to work through these significant issues.

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  8. "I think you have missed the point. Jesus could have just as easily said "My teachings" are the way. He did not. He said "I" am the way... in the SAME way he referenced himself in the seven other "I AM" statements found in John." (Soerdbearer)

    Actually your logic proves my point perfectly. Why didn;t Jesus come out and say 'he was god often and in more than 1 gospel'? Actually nowhere in any gospel does Jesus literally say he is God - we have to infer this from 7 'I am' statements. I think it's easie to just say 'I am God' personally - why the colorful language to show this?

    As for Jesus' teachings being the 'way' well one just need Matt 7:24-29 to see this very clearly - but that is another gospel altogether - so let's stick to John.

    John 14:6 doesn't only contain the idea of the 'way' but also 'truth' and 'life'...3 concepts in one sentence that Jesus refers to himself as (which I don't see as literal but as figurative - as in a teaching in and of itself). I think Jesus is refering to his teachings in each.

    John 14:23-24 are fairly straighforward and from the same chapter: "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words..." (also in vs 15 and 21). 4 Times in this single chapter Jesus refers to 'his words' - or his teachings - as he calls them 'commandments' in vs. 15.

    I would also say the ideas of truth and life fit fairly well with the teachings were representative of.

    Truth - John 3:21, 8:32, 8:45, 17:17, 18:37.

    Life: John 3:36, 6:63, 6:68, 10:10, 12:50, 17:3, 20:31

    But that's just how I have come to see it - and to be honest - John leaves the door wide open to believe in Jesus as the son of God - and as God himself - and then also doesn't in certain passages (making sharp distinctions between God and Jesus). I guess it's all how one wants to intepret the writing of John - that will ultimately decide what one thinks. I also note - there are 3 other gospels outside of this one.

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  9. "I will point out – the Jewish faith and scriptures forbid human sacrifice – and those scriptures were written by God also." (societyvs)

    There's a reason the O.T. looks down on "human" sacrifice...
    Consider what Jesus taught in Hebrews 10 "Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: 'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, BUT a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, 'Here I am -it is written about me in the scroll-I have come to do your will, O God. ' First he said, 'Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them' (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, 'Here I am, I have come to do your will.' He sets aside the first to establish the secome. And BY THAT WILL, we have been maded holy THREOUGH THE SACRIFICE OF THE BODY OF JESUS once for all."

    The point is this, no other "human sacrifice" was acceptible, for as the prophet writes "Even our best works are like filthy rags before God." However, that is NOT the case with Jesus, who being both human and divine, did not possess a sinful nature, and lived fully to do the will of God, so much so that he fully kept God's requirement of righteousness (his being and acts not even being tainted with sin in the least). Hence, it is by God's will (he being the one who has been wronged, as well as the mercy giver, and the one who decides what he will accept in the way leading toward reconciliation) that has both set Christ apart as the only means of salvation and redemption as well as our only hope of salvation.

    These same verses explain why man's works will not suffice, but only the atonement that comes through Christ. This is why you must put your hope in him, and not in your own works, however good they might appear to you, for God has appointed only one mediator and Savior of man and that is found not in us, but in Christ.

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  10. “If societyvs denies Christ's ability to atone and holds to Rabbi Singer's statement "Jesus could not die for anyone's sins...", then he is NOT a Christian and should be noted accordingly.” (Swordbearer)

    I agree with Swordbearer – note it.

    “Seems societyvs not only denies the true gospel but seeks to come up with his own, one which looks to works righteousness rather than the gift and righteousness of God.” (Swordbearer)

    Interesting you should mention this – in fact – I am studying the roots of the atonement idea – anyone else doing this – in fact yes? I am looking at what the Jewish rabbi said about the 3 aspects of atonement in the torah and prophets and how Jesus says ‘he will fulfill the Torah and Prophets’…and then looking at the idea with more depth. Maybe I am working through this idea and the discussion is very helpful – where I stand at the atonement I am not sure at this point but it goes like this:

    (a) Jewish atonement – 3 aspects (Torah (Blood), Repentance, and Charity)
    (b) Christian aspect actually respects all 3 of these ideas – but holds up one as the only atonement that matters
    (c) Jesus mention each idea in all gospels – repentance, charity (we also see this in Acts community), and sacrifice
    (d) Maybe Jesus fulfills the blood atonement (from Hebrews) once and for all – not to happen yearly now – all are cleared
    (e) However, all may be cleared but we still have our parts in the good news – repentance and charity.

    I might be wrong on this – but – it does line up better with Jewish theology and ideas as they would’ve presented them – since we know Jewish people wrote these gospels and letters (or are we going to debate that too).

    I would say call me whatever you need to call me – but I am being honest with what I study and look into – and that’s my personal journey. If you think I am not a Christ-ian – so be it – I am not going to concern myself with these calls on my life.

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  11. 1. " Jewish atonement – 3 aspects (Torah (Blood), Repentance, and Charity)" (Societyvs)

    So, what blood is associated with the atonement you are looking to?
    An animals?

    2. "Maybe Jesus fulfills the blood atonement (from Hebrews) once and for all – not to happen yearly now – all are cleared
    (e) However, all may be cleared but we still have our parts in the good news – repentance and charity." (societyvs)

    "For it is by GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH, and this NOT from YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of God, NOT BY WORKS..." (Eph 2:8-9)

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  12. societyvs,

    I think a few things may be helpful to you:

    1. An illustration - My son, when he was small, asked me to tie his shoe but then would not let me. He wanted to do it himself, though he could not do it. I let him try until he finally looked up and said "Father, will you tie my shoe" (i.e., Will you do for me what I cannot do for myself?) This is a picture of the salvation that comes through Christ. We must come to recognize that we cannot meet the goal ourselves (the standard of God's righteousness) and we must look to the Father (our heavenly one) to do for us and to provide for us that which we cannot do/provide for ourselves. (Meet the standard of God's righteousness - thru Christ, who is the gift of God for the salvation of sinners.)

    2. Consider the powerful words of Paul in Philippians 3:7ff (and think about where one should put their hopes - in their own works, in their own works plus Christ, or in Christ) Paul writes "But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christi Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consier them rubbish, that I MAY BE FOUND IN HIM, NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN THAT COMES FROM THE LAW, BUT THAT WHICH IS THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST - the righeousness that comes FROM GOD and is BY FAITH."

    3. Seems that while studying Jewish beliefs and practices can be helpful (on one level), it seems you need to look to Christ and his teachings (even as found among the apostles) and read the O.T. (and evaluate Jewish teachings) in light of these, rather than the other way around. Think about it, while some Jews have come to know salvation in Christ, many have missed and deny the Messiah, ... why would base and begin your thinking with them, especially those who profess the need for animal sacrifice, and yet are not performing them (and have not for years)?

    Christ himself says the Law and the Prophets both point to him. In fact, he criticises those who claimed Moses but did see that Moses pointed to him. As Christ shows, the entire Old Testament fits well (perfectly) with the truth of Christ and his kingdom when one understands it properly. While it's true that one can begin with the O.T. and arrive at Christ, perhaps since you are struggling going in that direction (and it's not making sense), perhaps it may be more beneficial for you to begin with Christ (and the O.T. revealed) and then work back to the O.T. (or the N.T. concealed) and see how it fits like a glove! In either case, what you will find is that even animal sacrice alone was not acceptable, but only as it pointed to Christ, who is the fulfillment of the earlier types, and the one in whom alone is found live and salvation.

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  13. SocietyVs,

    Do you follow the teachings of Jesus (as you previously claimed), or of Judaist, whom Jesus equated with blind leaders of the blind (Matthew 15:14) and of their father the Devil (John 8:39-44)? If you want to debate the authority of the New Testament, so be it. But one cannot reject the New Testament and be a Christian, nor can one beleive in many paths to God and be a Christian.

    If this rabbi is so knowledgable about the Torah, why is he so wrong about the Messiah? Does he know more than Paul? Who is the Messiah? If it be Christ, why reject His teachings?

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  14. Concerning the TRINITY, societyvs wrote "Actually, I am asking rabbi’s and others in the Jewish community who actually study the Hebrew and have dedicated themselves to studying the whole of the Tanakh – and they say there is no proof of a Trinity…I have to think they are right on this – they dedicate their lives to those teachings. I have not set up a ‘straw man’ whatsoever..."

    I would quote the Hebrew for Genesis 1:26 for you but from what you have written, you probably would not understand it. An English equivalent would be "then...said God let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness..." The word "us" is a Qal imperfect 1st person PLURAL. Likewise the words for "our" are Qal imperfects 3rd person masculine PLURAL. How do your rabbi's interpret these?

    How about the theophanies, the Son passages, the attributes assigned to the Messiah, etc.? The list could go on. Seems while trying to claim some measure of intellectual superiority (even if just in the method) you are missing the truth because you're looking to those who do themselves do not know the truth.

    Have you read the gospels?

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  15. "Do you follow the teachings of Jesus (as you previously claimed), or of Judaist, whom Jesus equated with blind leaders of the blind (Matthew 15:14) and of their father the Devil (John 8:39-44)?" (Puritan)

    I will ask you once - do you truly believe what you have written here - about Jewish people?

    Secondly, I am going back to the very culture that Jesus was both born and raised in - and then taught from (Torah and Prophets). I see no problem with doing that and learning at their feet the things about their faith I no little about in way of interpretation. I want to be honest towards God the Father and the best way I can do that is respect His teachings by learning from those who study them - including Jewish Rabbi's.

    "But one cannot reject the New Testament and be a Christian, nor can one beleive in many paths to God and be a Christian." (Puritan)

    I do not reject the NT - never said I will or ever have. I don't think the way to God is so small it can be contained in some salvation calculation - maybe that's why there is 66 books huh? But if pressed - the way to God is via the teachings of Christ - and for those who do not hear them - the true essence of those teachings is simple 'treat others how you want to be treated' (this both pleases God and sums up all the Torah and Prophets- fulfills them if you will).

    "If this rabbi is..." (Puritan)

    You go and ask him - don't ask me about someone else.

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  16. "I will ask you once - do you truly believe what you have written here - about Jewish people?"
    Nice try societyvs, but I've been around and can very quickly recognize race-baiting. I really don't appreciate it, as it shows a refusal to deal honestly with claims of truth, not to mention an attempt to smear me. I said absolutely nothing "about Jewish people" and you know it. We are dealing with false religions, not people's ethnic backgrounds. Please stay focused without trying dirty liberal smear tactics

    Now to answer your question directly (as it should have been asked). For those who practice the Jewish religion, "yes". Judiasm (as well as anyh religion that is not Christianity) is a false demonically inspired religion. Jesus (whom you claim to admire) said so, and that is good enough for me. What ye think of Christ now? He's quite a bit different than the one that you and Deepak Chopra made up in your imaginations. He was not tolerant of false religion, and neither should his disciples be.

    The reason that we reject the rabbinical teachings of the Torah is because Judaism is a false religion. It is a religion of failed prophecies concerning the Messiah. What else needs to be said about that? The problem with those who hold to the rabbinical teachings of the Torah is that they cannot produce the material evidence of their own Messianic Prophecies. They are left trying to please a holy and perfect God with their own imperfections, an impossible task. You mentioned three forms of atonement, yet even the Torah only mentions one, the shedding of blood. Repentance and Charity are great gifts, but are NOT atonement for sins.

    However, you claim to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, which is why I addressed your own faith. I only brought it up because it does matter, but you don’t have to answer if you do not want to. I guess a non-answer is easier than giving an answer and having to defend it. But you are clearly not a Christian, and not really a Judaist either.

    Let me ask you, since Judaists were wrong about Messiah (which you have somewhat acknowledged), why trust them on the Psalms (or any other prophetic interpretations)?

    Christ warned that those Jews who rejected Him would be destroyed, along with the temple, within that generation (Matthew 24:34). The fulfillment of that prophecy ended forever the Old Covenant form of Judaism. In it’s place came two belief systems, a newer for of Judaism devoid of any high priest, temple, or sacrifices, and Christianity, the rightful heir of all three.

    Christ Himself claimed to be the Messiah, and to be God (as I have shown in my article). If you reject Him as the Messiah, then you have no atonement for your sins, as your rabbi friend has done. If you accept His claims to be Messiah, as you apparently do, then why reject His claims of Divinity and as being the ONLY way to the Father?

    By the way, you made reference to “tanzih”. Are you a Muslim? Would you like to discuss “tanzih”?

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  17. “Salvation comes from faith – so all that is required is to say you have faith? A confession maybe? Even if we drag this out into a full definition we will still arrive at where I am at – you still need to commit to repentance and charity – basically you need to make a commitment to the teachings of Christ." (Societyvs)

    Repentance and charity are "fruits" not the "root" of faith.

    Note in Acts 2, the people were "cut to the heart" with the teaching concerning the Lord. Here is belief first, after which is found the response of faith which includes things like baptism, etc.

    In the same way, in Eph 2, we find that Paul speaks of "works" in verse 10, only after he speaks of the grace and salvation in verses 8-9. The works do not lead to or result in salvation, but are the fruits and effects of salvation.

    Often, men try to substitute "man's gift (or commitment) to Christ" for "Christ's gift to man. In this light, Christianity is not so much about man himself making the right decision as much as God working in man to believe what God himself has first done for man. Remember what the Scripture teaches, "This is love, NOT that WE LOVED GOD, but that HE LOVED US and SENT HIS SON as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."

    In failing to distinguish between these, many often claim to be Christians, while trying to merit some form of righteousness (thru charity and works before God) ... AS IF Christ came to die for the GODLY; but that is not what Scripture says, it says "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the UNGODLY." (Rom 5:6) societyvs, you are still trying to merit or prove some measure of righteousness before God...while the truth is God sent Christ to die even for the UNGODLY... who HE saves (through washing and cleanses) and then works through for the sake of his own glory!

    Regarding your own works, Dr. D. James Kennedy used to give the illustration, if someone were making an omelette and put several good eggs in it but then had a bad one and put it in and mixed it in as well and presented it to you, would YOU accept it? In the same way, God does not accept even our best works (which are impure before him). Only CHRIST is acceptable to Him. Think of the times God himself says "This is my Son, in whom I am WELL PLEASED." Trust not in your own works, but BELIEVE on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (the Son of God, and only Savior of Sinners) and you will be saved!

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  18. societyvs,

    You are all over the place, but are not dealing with any specific points I addressed.

    1.) You acknowledged that I refered to "Judaists", those who practice the false religion of Judaism. That's a far cry from talking "about Jewish people" as a race, which you tried to imply. Trust me, as a preterist, I get that same treatment from dispensationalists all the time. It's an old ploy. Discredit the messenger, and then your can simply write off his arguments.

    2.) No one every suggested that we should not help, befriend, or "tolerate" a person of false religious beliefs. This does not, however, mean that tolerate their beliefs. Jesus never tolerated sin or false religion, but rather rebuked and redeemed them. (You asked if I had ever read the gospels. I have. Have you??? I have to wonder.)

    As I pointed out in the last thread with Dank, your "tolerance" is a farce. You are quite "intolerant" of orthodox Christianity, just as he was. Just like him, you want to assume that your worldview is correct, and then label anyone who disagrees with you as "intolerant". It's a ploy that no one here buys.

    You ask how I can suggest that Christ did not pay for the sin of ignorance. That, I never suggested. However, those who know the true Christ may only obtain that knowledge from the Father, just as Peter did.

    "Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:16-17)

    This is a supernatural knowledge that God has blessed His elect with. When it comes to those who are redeemed, they are not ignorant about the identity of Christ. This is a knowledge that Oprah lacks, and apparently you do as well. My prayer is that your will obtain such saving knowledge. My debate can only deal with your head. Only God and change the heart.

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  19. societyvs,

    Do you love God with "all your heart, soul, mind and strength"? Have you ever broken this commandment?

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  20. “So GOD created man in HIS own image, in the image of GOD he created them”

    I am not sure what this actually proves – it’s the same idea as the sentence before it – same idea – plural speech. This could also be a writer’s perspective while writing – speaking of God from his own perspective as a reader/writer. If I said that sentence to you just out of the blue – you would not think I am talking about God’s (plural) – you would only hear One God – or I would say ‘God’s created them in their image’. Also worth noting is…is God female also? It says he created ‘them’ in His image.

    “You're response is both unbiblical and unorthodox.” (Sword)

    Not really – then again I am not aiming at orthodoxy.

    “each is worthy of worship” (Sword)

    Do you worship the Spirit of God or in the Spirit of God? Just a question – each time I hear they are equal as God – very few actually live up to that claim (Usually confused about worship and do so in the name of Jesus and God the Father only).

    “The fulfillment of that prophecy ended forever the Old Covenant form of Judaism” (Sword)

    Is that an assumption or a fact? According to Jewish rabbi’s this old testament covenant ended long before AD 70…and that is their claim – thus the scriptures a 3 atonement system. However, if you want that to be true – then I think the claim should be outright in the passage stated.

    “but to call yourself a Christian while denying the basic beliefs and historically recognized foundations of Christianity is not only deceptive but false” (Sword)

    Do you read anything I write or just ignore it all? I have not cast aside atonement nor have I rejected Jesus as the Messiah. It is a fact I do question orthodox beliefs about the Trinity – but then they should of removed all the passages that separate God and Jesus. And to use the saying ‘son of God’ alone is not the best proof.

    “Note in chapter 26, Jesus is accused of blasphemy...what do think is meant by the high priest when he asked Jesus if he was the "Son of God"?” (Sword)

    That’s a good point – it’s almost as if the Jewish nation believed the Messiah would be the literal ‘son of God’ huh? This is not true. What the priest has a problem with there is the Messiahship of Jesus and this placement that puts him so close to God. Now I could be wrong – maybe the Jewish nation thought the Messiah was the literal ‘son of God’ – but if this is so – then let’s go about the venture of proving that.

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  21. societyvs,

    As has repeatedly been demonstrated, you go to great lengths to reject the Word of God to include Christ himself. Know that those who do so risk being rejected by God.

    You should learn from the example of Elymas in Acts 13 and quit perverting the right ways of the Lord before you too are given over.

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  22. The reason so many Christians are opposed to Oprah's "pluralism" is really a psychological one and has nothing to do with scripture. Their ego is what makes them so offended by it. She is saying basically that acts are what makes you a worthy person, not specific beliefs. Essentially that means any truly good person is worthy of God's love. This is hated because it means that the kingdom of Heaven is no longer an exclusive club. The fundamentalists are not special. They are as worthy of damnation as the rest of us. This pluralism makes it abundantly clear that quoting Bible verses non-stop is not enough to get you into God's good graces.

    Some people despise that thought.

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  23. Craig,
    You said….
    She is saying basically that acts are what makes you a worthy person, not specific beliefs. Essentially that means any truly good person is worthy of God's love.

    The problem here is that Christians believe the Bible and what it says rather than what Oprah or anyone else says. The Bible disagrees with “acts making you a worthy person.” It says in Romans 3:10 none is righteous no not one. It goes on to say that it is a belief that makes a person righteous in God’s sight. Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: THEREFORE, It is faith (belief) that makes one righteous and not their acts. The nest verse tells us why a person’s acts do not make him a worthy person. V. 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, These facts are repeated over and over in the Bible. You can believe them or not believe them, but it is not fundamentalists who wrote these things in the Bible. They have been in writing for at least 2000 years. People can choose to believe Oprah or the Bible. They should give thought to who they believe.

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  24. To be absolutely frank, I don't care what the Bible says. Every "holy" book ever written has claimed to be the truth and the only way to heaven/nirvana/etc. They obviously can't all be right and the odds are that none are. But this is neither the time or place for that debate.

    My point was that I think Oprah's idea of pluralism hurts some people on a personal level more than it hurts or offends them on a spiritual level. It seems to me that when someone says "Oprah denies Christ" they could just as well say "Oprah denies ME". After all, she has the audacity to suggest that the philosophy that you have been indoctrinated into and have followed your entire life may be flawed and may not be the only way to happiness (aka Heaven). No one likes to be called wrong especially when they think they have been gifted with the knowledge of absolute truth.

    To jazzycat: I never said that acts make a person religious but that they decide if the person is good. Goodness and religion are mutually exclusive. And, while I appreciate your concern, I hold no reverence toward either the Bible or Oprah. The "Course in Miracles" stuff she's preaching is nothing more than a new age placebo. That isn't the Christian side of me but the skeptical side.

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  25. Craig,
    You said....
    That isn't the Christian side of me but the skeptical side.

    Are you claiming to have a Christian side? What is your point?

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  26. "To be absolutely frank, I don't care what the Bible says..." (Craig)

    Craig,
    Why should we care what you say? Apart from the basis of authority (/reason that words have any meaning/relevance) your words are meaningless / irrelevant. Since you don't look to the Bible, would you like to provide us with a rational argument for why your words / opinions should mean anything to us.

    Not only that but your words are contradictory. On the one hand
    you state acts make us worthy of God's love, and then you state "They are as worthy of damnation as the rest of us." Which is it?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Swordbearer:

    By your logic then no one's words, unless they are written in the Bible, have any merit. That would render all debate, and in fact all society, meaningless. I should not have to explain to you why my view should matter. It is opinion and I don't have any delusion of absolute knowledge. Isn't that the reason for the comment section; opinion?

    Also, I think you misread my post or maybe I wrote it poorly. I stated that acts should make people worthy of God's love. After that I said that the people self-appointed ministers who go about quoting Bible versus are (or should be) as as worthy of damnation as the rest of us. They were two separate points and don't seem to be contradictory.

    ReplyDelete

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